So I was at a pub trying to get some work done the other day and I struck up a conversation with some really nice people. Brother and sister…Brits who grew up in France. We started talking sports. Then moved to politics. Then moved to the justice systems of the world. Then moved to religion. Then moved to Jesus. Then back to sports.
But the interesting part was not the sports (while the Colts were in the AFC Championship game and that is interesting)…it was the politics, justice, religion, Jesus talk that has me thinking. Matthew (the brother), politely, mentioned something about how it’s ridiculous that we (Americans) have a president that is anti-abortion, while still pro-death penalty and war. I listened. Then he said that he doesn’t buy the whole ‘eye for an eye’ thing…good thing…neither do I…and neither did Jesus.
Matthew 5:38-39
38″You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
When I was in the States over the summer I went to a Cigars and Theology group in Loomis. And we started talking about this same subject. It’s somewhat of a passion of mine…and so is speaking up when another voice needs to be heard. I’ve come to a point in my life when I don’t see any benefit to humanity for a war in which profit is to be made by the people fighting. (Just war = a war in which one party is fighting on behalf of the helpless and receives nothing as a reward, only gives of itself.) I don’t see any real benefit to following the still often quoted and practiced ‘eye for an eye’ policy. For one, I don’t want that used against me…I prefer grace and forgiveness. And two, eye for an eye was established by God as a law because He understands our inability to be just when we have been wronged. So he said…if you are already going to be vengeful…don’t escalate the conflict by taking what you don’t deserve as retribution. Yet, on a social level, we have chosen to agree that killing a guy for murder is good…even hanging somebody. We have chosen to buy in to the ‘war is ok if it’s to protect me and mine’ policy.
The real issue for me is that Jesus said…if you are living in the Kingdom of God…don’t resist people who are going to do you harm…turn the other cheek. Jesus didn’t want His disciples to attempt to gain control through retaliation or any other typical solutions that humanity has come up with. He wants us to trust. He wants us to live out the Kingdom reality that God is at the center of justice and forgiveness. If we continue to go about justice and judgement in a worldly way then we prove that God’s ways are not better than man’s.
I was just reading in the Gospel of Mark when Jesus is standing in front of Pilate and offers no defense for Himself despite the many accusations of the Pharisees. It says that Pilate was amazed at Jesus for this. Why? Because Pilate was probably used to seeing people beg and plead for their lives and Jesus remained trusting in the face of being falsely accused. Pilate had never seen anything like it…and neither has our world in many centuries.
Back to the pub…talking about who Jesus was, what He taught, and what He stands for is always an interesting conversation. His teachings are true for all people, good news for all people, and logical to all people on a social and individual level…I love them. Even when they are hard to follow…or seemingly impossible they are good and I can trust them.
I heard the Eye for an Eye thing was because that was a just way of dealing with people who would take more than an eye for an eye in the OT times. So rather than being like waring tribal factions who would bring revenge for revenge for revenge… God instituted the law of an Eye for an Eye because it was fairer than a wife or child for an eye, like some Babilonians and other believed…
Hey Lauri - Thanks for the post. I would agree with what you wrote and point out that your mention of the Babylonians, Philistines, etc. would be a good example of what I meant when I said that as people we often don’t understand justice and want to take back more than we initially had taken from us. I think that ‘eye for an eye’ was also a principle in the form of a metaphor, not only reserved for when somebody literally had an eye poked out…If that were the case then we’d have commandments like…’spleen for a spleen’ or ‘leg for leg’…but it’s the principle behind the metaphor that was important for the people of Israel.
But, under a new covenant, Jesus taught, ‘You have heard it was ‘eye for an eye’ BUT I say to you…turn the other cheek.’ The eye for an eye principle is not longer the best way. We have a new option for a new covenant. (I intentionally veer from using the word law.) God’s way is not even the way that may make sense to us as we want justice…God’s way is forgiveness and grace in the face of injustice…this is the way that people will see the trust and power we hold as ‘dwellers’ in the kingdom of God.
Thank you for the thoughtful comments on the book of Mark. When one surrenders one’s life to Jesus, His cross becomes ours. His kingdom was not “of this world”. It cost Him his life on earth, but He showed us what it meant to follow Him. He willingly died for His cause . . . to save and bring peace. When Christians follow the Prince of Peace we become peacemakers. It may cost our lives, just like the One we follow. We live in an “eye for eye” world because the prince of this world is not a peacemaker. This changes when individuals take up the challenge to become Christ followers. Reading/studing/meditating on His Book/Word has the power to change the post-modern world from warriors to peacemakers - in the same way it has done over the centuries. The Word has the same power today as it did in the time Mark wrote his history of Jesus’ life. I pray for you and Christians all over the world who are committed to learning about, and carrying out, Jesus’ directive to be peacemakers. . . one by one, even if it costs one’s physical life.
There are two governing bodies to which each man and women choose to give their allegience. They are very different governments. The governments on earth are made up of believers and unbelievers. The believer has pledged his allegience to a heavenly government. This makes a Christ-follower a blessing to earthly governments.
Paul, the great Jewish/Christian writer helps the seeker understand the Christ-followers relationship to those who are not Christ-follower and to those who are.
To the Christian, he writes:
“So brothers and sisters, since God has shown us great mercy, I beg you to offer your lives as a living sacrifice to him. Your offering must be only for God and pleasing to him, which is the spiritual way for you to worship. Do not change yourselves to be like the people who are not Christ-followers, but be changed within by a new way of thinking. Then you will be able to decide what God wants for you; you will know what is good and pleasing to him and what is perfect. Because God has given me a special gift, I have something to say to everyone among you. Do not think you are better than you are. You must decide what you really are by the amount of faith God has given you. Each one of us has a body with many parts, and these parts all have different uses. In the same way, we are many, but in Christ we are all one body. Each one is a part of that body, and each part belongs to all the other parts. We all have different gifts, each of which came because of the grace God gave us. The person who has the gift of prophecy should use that gift in agreement with the faith. Anyone who has the gift of serving should serve. Anyone who has the gift of teaching should teach. Whoever has the gift of encouraging others should encourage. Whoever has the gift of giving to others should give freely. Anyone who has the gift of being a leader should try hard when he leads. Whoever has the gift of showing mercy to others should do so with joy.
Your love must be real. Hate what is evil, and hold on to what is good. Love each other like brothers and sisters. Give each other more honor than you want for yourselves. Do not be lazy but work hard, serving the Lord with all your heart. Be joyful because you have hope. Be patient when trouble comes, and pray at all times. Share with God’s people who need help. Bring strangers in need into your homes.
Wish good for those who harm you; wish them well and do not curse them. Be happy with those who are happy, and be sad with those who are sad. Live in peace with each other. Do not be proud, but make friends with those who seem unimportant. Do not think how smart you are. If someone does wrong to you, do not pay him back by doing wrong to him. Try to do what is right. Do your best to live in peace with everyone. My friends, do not try to punish others when they wrong you, but wait for God to punish them with his anger. It is written: “I will punish those who do wrong; I will repay them,” says the Lord. But you should do this:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him a drink.
Doing this will be like pouring
burning coals on his head.”
Proverbs 25:21-22
Do not let evil defeat you, but defeat evil by doing good. All of you must yield to the government rulers. No one rules unless God has given him the power to rule, and no one rules now without that power from God. So those who are against the government are really against what God has commanded. And they will bring punishment on themselves. Those who do right do not have to fear the rulers; only those who do wrong fear them. Do you want to be unafraid of the rulers? Then do what is right, and they will praise you. The ruler is God’s servant to help you. But if you do wrong, then be afraid. He has the power to punish; he is God’s servant to punish those who do wrong. So you must yield to the government, not only because you might be punished, but because you know it is right.
This is also why you pay taxes. Rulers are working for God and give their time to their work. Pay everyone, then, what you owe. If you owe any kind of tax, pay it. Show respect and honor to them all.
QUESTION: How does the Christ-follower resolve the issue of war, government imposed capital or any kind of discipline/punishment?
Hello Oma, I agree with all that you wrote..especially the bit at the top about how true Christ followers are a blessing to the world around them and the governments that they happen to live under. I also love the passage in Romans…it’s one of my favorites.
I also appreciate the question you asked and the dilemma that it brings…I don’t have this figured out and am not an expert…I just offer my two cents.
There are times when a Christ follower has to use the wisdom that God gives us to make a good choice. Often times we use the verse you quoted to default to robot
status and not take note of the real things that governments do that are a far cry from Kingdom values. Opposite of this, I think about the many Christians who lead the Church in China despite their governments saying not to. Or I think of the German Christians who stood against the Nazi regime. Or of the first century Christians who were killed because of they wouldn’t worship Caesar as god. We must use the wisdom God has given us to be a positive influence when authority figures operate in a way that is contrary to Kingdom values.
It seems to be that there are a few main principles in Romans 13…One is that there is no authority other than God. And two is that each person should be accountable to their conscience for doing what is right. Living by these principles gives us the freedom to live in the wisdom that God has given us.
Also Oma…your email address is not working and I’d love to know who you are!
Jesus existed prior to his arrival on earth and exists after his departure from the earth. Jesus is God. God is Jesus. When Jesus returns, if you are looking for a peacemaker, you will miss him. Scripture is very clear that when human beings see Jesus again, it will not be a pleasant experience for a lot of people. Jesus returns with wrath and judgment. Let’s be careful about pidgeon-holing Jesus into a subversive, passive role. When you characterize God in this way, it takes away from a real fear of his wrath and judgment.
I can only imagine the pleads from people as God pours out his wrath and judgment on them.. “But we were told you loved us no matter what” “I was told that you were a peacemaker, why are you pouring out your wrath and judgement on me?”…. It is true that God loves EVERYONE… But his love isn’t enough to save them, otherwise everyone would be saved. We need to speak the TRUTH to everyone, there isn’t enough time to sugar coat everything like this.
The question is this: Are we interested in people feeling good about Christianity or are we interested in saving souls?? The gospel is biting and convicting, let’s not leave out the most important parts of the Gospel for the sake of making people like us.
I appreciate you taking the time post on my blog. I will respond in length because there is much to be said about what you wrote. I will go through your post piece by piece to give my perspective, thoughts, and beliefs. Your comments are in quotes.
“Jesus existed prior to his arrival on earth and exists after his departure from the earth. Jesus is God. God is Jesus. When Jesus returns, if you are looking for a peacemaker, you will miss him. Scripture is very clear that when human beings see Jesus again, it will not be a pleasant experience for a lot of people. Jesus returns with wrath and judgment. Let’s be careful about pigeon-holing Jesus into a subversive, passive role.”
I agree with the fundamentals of this portion of your post. Because this in the context of an ‘eye for an eye’ post I ask this? What about turning the other cheek is subversive or passive? It seems to me that it takes more strength and wisdom to respond with grace and NOT needing to retaliate, thus turning the other cheek. I do not intend to pigeon hole Jesus as a one sided individual…in fact I believe that we have to wrestle with the reality that Jesus is both returning in glory and the fact that he said of himself (one of the only things he said of himself) was that He was “gently and lowly in heart” (Matt 11:29)
However, when you say:
“When you characterize God in this way, it takes away from a real fear of his wrath and judgment.”
The Bible does say that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, but I have a pretty big disagreement with your assumption that there must be a real fear of wrath and judgement. We should only fear God because of the power that He holds over all creation and the natural awe that should inspire, not fear Him because we are afraid of some of His attributes. And because Jesus is God/God is Jesus, we must look at what Jesus taught about grace as well as judgement. I believe that for centuries we (meaning Christianity) have used fear as the primary motivating factor to follow God. I believe that grace is the true motivating factor in God’s relationship with humanity…this is the Gospel. If you believe that the Gospel is good for all people (like Luke 2 says) then you have to believe that God giving grace through Jesus should be the main point of our emphasis.
“I can only imagine the pleads from people as God pours out his wrath and judgment on them.. “But we were told you loved us no matter what” “I was told that you were a peacemaker, why are you pouring out your wrath and judgement on me?”"
Shawn…I don’t know you, so this is a shot in a dark. But it seems to me that you may be too excited to be on the winning team. It is harder to be a humble winner than a humble loser. This quote came across like you are too ok with the reality that many of your fellow humans will be separated from God. This saddens me for you. You and I only have one thing that separates us from people who don’t know God…The gift of the Holy Spirit that comes through grace. Don’t forget that you at one time were a person out of relationship with God…think about it…If you hadn’t turned towards Christ before He came back you’d be there with your excuses too. It’s not that I disagree with your theology…I just strongly disagree with the arrogance that is perceived. We should be saddened and infused with passion to keep as many as possible from having to stand before Christ with their own shame and guilt on their hands.
“….It is true that God loves EVERYONE… But his love isn’t enough to save them, otherwise everyone would be saved.”
The Bible says that God IS love…I don’t understand how you can believe that a being who is all powerful who IS love doesn’t have enough love in Him to save all. I think that salvation for all is not dependent on how God feels about people…it’s how people feel about God. People choose pride over loving God (think Lucifer here) and in the end get separated from God. It’s NEVER because God falls short in some area. This is an area I think you ask God to give you greater clarity on. Maybe you are projecting your own inability to be loving onto God?
“We need to speak the TRUTH to everyone, there isn’t enough time to sugar coat everything like this.”
I agree with you as in John 1 it is said numerous times that Jesus came with both grace and truth. Flip a few pages over and we find the story of the woman caught in adultery…what does Jesus (who is God) choose to do? Give grace. What does Jesus when he’s being tortured choose to do? Give grace. What does Jesus say when He’s dying on the cross? Forgive them. He chose grace. So I ask…What does it mean to speak the truth? The truth is that God is a grace-giving God and in the end His ultimate desire is to be glorified because of the way He interacted with humanity. There is a time and place for ’speaking truth’ as you have defined it…but know that Jesus also says…We will all be judged in the way we judged others. He also says…let us not judge so that we will not be judged. Truth is like a firehose…It’s good for putting out fires, but it’s deadly to try to drink out of. Truth without grace used in an inappropriate way is displeasing to God. The Bible says to be wise with handling the truth. If we as the Church are here on the earth to be God’s ambassadors for redemption then let’s not kill people with the firehouse and instead give them water that will quench their thirst…not blast their faces off.
“The question is this: Are we interested in people feeling good about Christianity or are we interested in saving souls?? The gospel is biting and convicting, let’s not leave out the most important parts of the Gospel for the sake of making people like us.”
I believe that you are missing the beauty of the both/and…while choosing the either/or. For one it is not us who save souls. It is God and we are merely His agents. Two, I believe (as Luke 2 states) that the Gospel is Good news for ALL people. The Gospel is a beautiful message because it is a story that puts the mirror in our faces…it shows us who we really are and frees us to be who God created us to be all at the same time. The message of the Gospel, a gospel of forgiveness, purpose, grace, freedom, life, love, and salvation, is both biting and convicting, and life giving at the same time. Biting and convicting because our pride tells us we can achieve all these things on our own and the Gospel says you can’t…many won’t like hearing this and won’t like us because of this message, that’s ok. But the Gospel is life-giving because we can achieve all these things (the list above) and eternal life because of the grace of God. I believe that it is this very juxtaposition that is the most important aspect of the Gospel…not a ‘gospel’ (which literally means good news) that is bad news for most people.
Shawn, once again, thanks for the post. You’ve given me some things to think about and I appreciate the opportunity to write down some core beliefs of mine. I’m sorry that we may disagree on some things, but this I do believe: Jesus is Lord. I trust that you can say the same and that this is the common ground we need to stand upon to call each other brothers.
Because of grace…Justin
Hi!
Just want to clarify a few points.
1) You commented that I seemed excited and OK with the fact that folks will be seperated from God. That’s a heavy implication you are charging. That I am somehow cheerful or okay that people will go to hell. That’s just not fair
2) I never said God’s love somehow falls short. God’s love is the most amazing force in the universe. All I am saying is that if God’s love was the saving force, everyone on earth and through all time would be saved, BECAUSE his love is so strong. But we know not everyone will be saved.
I just think we need to show all faces of God, not just the easy to show side. My post simply stated the often unshown side of God, which is often the most difficult to talk about and discuss.
Shawn,
I am truly sorry that I overstated an assumption about your feelings towards others…it was extremely unfair and you handled this with much grace. Seeing as we’ve never met in person it’s even more unfair! I can be ridiculous sometimes. I ask you forgiveness.
Thanks for being willing to speak out your beliefs as well. You are right in saying that God’s many faces are hard to discus, yet I am thankful that talking about it has brought me closer to Him and searching His word. Thanks for the dialogue…talk to you later.
Justin